慕道問題：究竟上帝在創世之前……

咪就係我問既第1條：世界未出現，祂身在哪裡？
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/9 23:29

原來晌spacetime fabric搵唔到又可以被稱為existed，咁究竟會晌邊度搵到／邊度exist？晌未有時空之前，點解仲要堅持佢係existed?
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/9 23:29

睇到Interpretations Among Protestants，噢原來都無定論，枉你仲話有共識，睇黎真係要用物理學黎幫手兜呢個難題。
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/9 23:29

Q: so what are the consensus amongst the 4 group of protestant views you listed? or are there none?

A:

That's an excellent follow-up question. The honest answer is that there is no single consensus among all Protestants on the nature of God's relationship to time, or the precise mechanics of the Genesis account.

However, we can identify a Classical/Orthodox Consensus and a Modern Evangelical Debate based on the four views you mentioned:

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1. The Classical/Orthodox Consensus

The dominant, historical, and most widely accepted theological position across mainline Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox traditions is the view derived from Classical Theism.

The Core Consensus: God is the Creator of Time

• View: Traditional/Classical Theism (God is Timeless)

• Holders: Nearly all major Reformed (Calvinist), Lutheran, Anglican, and traditional Methodist theology, as well as the historical consensus of the early church fathers (Augustine, Aquinas, etc.).

• The Point of Agreement: God is ontologically prior to and transcendent of the created universe, which includes time. Therefore, the conclusion that God created time is fundamental to this view.

• The Theological Basis: Since God is immutable (unchanging) and simple (not composed of parts), He cannot be subject to the succession of moments that define created time. For God, His eternal life is an "eternal now" that encompasses all of human time.

Summary of the Consensus

The vast majority of Protestants, historically and theologically, agree that the temporal (time-bound) universe is part of God's creation, and God Himself is eternal in the sense of existing outside of created time.

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2. The Modern Evangelical Debate (Disagreement on the How)

The most significant disagreements are not about whether God created time, but about (A) God's internal experience of time, and (B) the interpretation of the Genesis timeline.

A. The Debate on Divine Temporality (Internal Time)

• View: Traditional/Classical Theism vs. Process/Open Theism

• The Conflict: The Traditional view holds God is Timeless and Immutable (seeing the whole "road" of time at once). The Open Theism view, which gained traction in some evangelical circles in the late 20th century, argues that a timeless God cannot truly interact with a temporal world, and therefore, God must exist within time (i.e., He experiences moments sequentially) and may not know the future with absolute certainty.

• Consensus/Dominance: Open Theism is considered a minority view and is often seen as outside of orthodox consensus by the vast majority of mainline and conservative Protestant denominations (Reformed, Lutheran, Baptist, etc.). Therefore, the Classical Theism view of God's timelessness remains the theological standard.

B. The Debate on the Creation Timeline

• View: Young-Earth Creationism (YEC) vs. Old-Earth Creationism (OEC)

• The Conflict: This disagreement is about the duration of time in Genesis 1.

  • YEC (literal 24-hour days): Dominant in certain fundamentalist and evangelical churches.

  • OEC (day-age or framework theory): Widely accepted in many mainline Protestant churches, including the majority of academic theologians, as compatible with scientific understandings of an old universe.

• Consensus/Dominance: There is no consensus here. The Young-Earth view is a marker of certain conservative evangelical traditions, while the Old-Earth view is the common position in most other Protestant groups, demonstrating a clear split on the interpretation of the creation timeline, though both agree God is the ultimate Creator.

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Conclusion

The overarching theological consensus among Protestants is that God created time as a dimension of the physical universe, and He exists eternally outside of it (Classical Theism).

The lack of consensus lies in the details:

• Philosophical Detail: Whether God's knowledge and action are entirely timeless (Traditional) or sequential/temporal (Open Theism).

• Biblical Detail: Whether the "days" of creation describe literal 24-hour periods (YEC) or long epochs of time (OEC).

Would you like to explore the specific scriptural arguments for or against divine timelessness?

文中話There is no single consensus，你就話有overarching theological consensus ...
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/10 10:05

As far as I know，你認為你信既教同天主教係兩個唔同宗教，我就唔明你為乜要小對方，同埋要同對方有咩共識？
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/10 10:05

好啦，上帝唔存在於物理時空之內
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/10 10:05

最後講句「上帝超越一切」咪收工囉
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/10 10:05

天主創造了萬物又是事實。
beebeechan 發表於 2025/12/10 21:57

蒙羅麗莎未笑前就梗係唔笑。

咁天主未創世前係咪無野做？
抽刀斷水 2025/12/11 16:16 提交

裡面講「God created time as a dimension of the physical universe, and He exists eternally outside of it」，譯做「上帝存在於物理時空之外／上帝唔存在於物理時空之內」有咩問題？
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 10:35

上帝係記憶？現代人又好似無人見過上帝顯靈（就算有都被人話係假既／幻覺黎既）；
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 10:35

綜合以上，上帝在創世之前，既唔符合第1種解釋，又唔符合第2種解釋，所以係唔存在架。
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 10:35

共識係乜？辭典就話：「共同體認的觀念、想法」。如果話唔係全部人、全部野，咁係咪大多數人、大多數野？否則風馬牛有咩共識？
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 10:35

至於話你小天主教徒既目的，係因為基督教遭受騎劫，聲言要求天主教徒以及我要認同這是兩個宗教才會停手。首先我認唔認同就真係唔關事，你地搞掂晒我先會確定我既慕道方向既。不過據我所知，基督宗教向來都係善於騎劫，聖誕節、復活節、萬聖節都係騎返黎既，都唔好講三位一體呀處女受孕呀嗰啲了，有咩咁睇唔開呢？詳見：基督教涉嫌的二次創作 / 抄襲
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 10:35

He exists eternally outside of it，永遠晌物理時空外面存在喎，都唔得閒入黎啦下話

同埋唔該考慮埋前題「上帝在創世之前」
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 20:41

咁冇之前既世界駛鬼有咩野黎創造？
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 20:41

抄襲完消滅對方，咪成功騎劫囉。
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/11 20:41

回覆  jimmychauck
你未搞清楚偷換概念既concept，即使使用同一個詞語都會出現，更何況你用了不同詞語、不同概念，唔好勉強話「高度關聯」，查實係「在論證過程中，故意將一個詞語或概念的原本含義，替換成另一個看似相關但實際上意義不同的概念，從而誤導聽者」。抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/10/27 10:19

    我就唔明「共識」你有乜要拗，要證啲咩又要我做啲咩？話係「全面共識」即係全部人，「大部分共識」咪係大部分囉，「社會共識」就要統計、由社會定義啦，所以辭典話「共同體認的觀念、想法」，係無全面、大部分、社會等呢啲形容詞。至於你最先提出「你估我同佢中間有冇共識？」，咪係你地兩個人之間既野，你地自己決定。咁我等你地兩派/教有全面共識既時候，可能就有新既共識教派出現，呢個時候我先入教啦。
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/12 01:04

呢啲係成堆學者好多年解經嘅共識
jimmychauck 發表於 2025/12/9 22:54

睇到Interpretations Among Protestants，噢原來都無定論，枉你仲話有共識
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/9 23:29

2. 「揸美金就冇得揸英磅㗎咩？」你呢個比喻，係咪想話上帝可以有一部分存在於物理時空之外，另一部分存在於物理時空之內？Overarching theological consensus無提過喎，如果係咁應該會話He exists eternally outside of it and exists inside of it as well after the creation。
3. Gen 3:8明顯同overarching theological consensus原意有出入，因為上帝入咗物理時空內，所以consensus應改為He exists mostly outside of it and sometimes exists inside of it after the creation. 咁就清晰好多。
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/12 01:04

你呢種睇文字態度，不問為何作者如此表逹，而去質疑點解唔係好似你諗咁表逹，就係將自己嘅意思讀入文字，唔係讀文字作者嘅原來意思囉。
jimmychauck 發表於 2024/1/24 06:42

1. 我對存在既睇法就跟辭典既，但係你多次提到既overarching theological consensus嗰句He exists eternally outside of it，明顯就係另一回事，我直譯唔代表我認同。
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/12 01:04

物理學就唔會話「創世」既，睇死你地copy...就騎劫/抄襲，第日如果...基督宗教實會話...，...「成功爭取」黨咁。
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/12 01:04

金庸群俠傳online開服之前，就係要有人寫coding咁花時間慢慢創造出黎，點會係冇之前？
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/12 01:04

抄襲、騎劫咪即係對應偷竊同打劫囉，係就係兩個概念，但賊仔要做世界，why not both?
抽刀斷水 發表於 2025/12/12 01:04

好呀，我宜家唔講類比講比較，
即係，比較係睇相同定不同呢？
"收入豐厚"，又可以比"收入豐厚（理應）"？到底比較係比左個相同定不同呢？
日日見到有帖話西方教會沒落啦，教堂賣地執粒啦，信徒人數下降啦，又要拉埋天主教講冇人做神父啦，又組織不停擴張？
冇咩嘅，覺得求求其其啫。
jimmychauck 發表於 2025/10/25 19:31

2. 我已替換左#3成為"比較"，你冇回應
jimmychauck 發表於 2025/10/27 18:15

宜家係你不定話我偷換概念，which我其實亦一早講左唔再做，宜家用緊"比較"黎問你，跟足你期望啦喎。
jimmychauck 發表於 2025/10/27 21:59

Q: 偷竊和搶劫有分別嗎？是歸不同條例管轄嗎？A:

是的，偷竊和搶劫有著本質的區別，主要在於是否涉及暴力或武力威脅，並且它們在香港的法律中雖然都歸於**《盜竊罪條例》**管轄，但屬於不同的罪行，刑罰也大不相同。

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偷竊 (Theft) 與 搶劫 (Robbery) 的主要分別

兩者的最主要區別在於犯罪行為的手段和對受害人的影響：

[td]

區別點	偷竊 (盜竊罪)	搶劫 (搶劫罪)
關鍵要素	不涉及暴力或武力威脅	涉及暴力或武力威脅
行為方式	秘密、隱密地取走財物，通常在受害人不知情或未察覺的情況下發生。	公然、強行取走財物，在受害人知情且無法或難以反抗的情況下發生。
目的	不誠實地挪佔他人財產，意圖永久剝奪。	為了偷竊而使用武力或威嚇。
對人身危害	對人身安全沒有直接的暴力危害。	對人身安全有直接的暴力或威嚇危害。
香港最高刑罰	循公訴程序定罪後，最高可處監禁10年。	循公訴程序定罪後，最高可處終身監禁。

偷竊（盜竊罪）

• 定義核心：不誠實地挪佔屬於另一人的財產，意圖永久地剝奪該財產。

• 範例：店舖盜竊 (偷東西)、扒竊 (偷錢包)、從辦公桌偷走文件等。

搶劫（搶劫罪）

• 定義核心：在實施偷竊時，或在緊接偷竊之前或在偷竊時，為偷竊而向任何人使用武力，或使或試圖使任何人害怕會在當時當地受到武力對付。

• 關鍵在於武力/威嚇：搶劫是「盜竊」加上「暴力」或「恐嚇」的元素。即使只是威脅使用武力（例如用刀指著），也已構成搶劫罪。

• 範例：持刀威脅店員交出現金、在街上毆打他人後搶走財物、用言語威嚇受害人交出手機等。

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條例管轄

在香港特別行政區，這兩種罪行均主要由**《香港法例》第210章** 《盜竊罪條例》 管轄：

• 盜竊罪 (Theft)：定義於**《盜竊罪條例》第2條**。

• 搶劫罪 (Robbery)：定義於**《盜竊罪條例》第10條**。

雖然搶劫是涉及暴力的嚴重罪行，但法律將其歸類在《盜竊罪條例》下，是因為搶劫的本質是以武力或威嚇手段進行的盜竊。搶劫罪的刑罰之所以遠比普通盜竊罪重，正是因為其涉及對人身安全的嚴重侵害。

如果您想進一步了解其他相關的財產罪行（例如勒索、爆竊），我可以為您查詢相關資訊。